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Chips' Fun House Forum Index  ~  TF2 - Team Fortress 2  ~  3 G4B2S servers
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Chips
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:58 pm  Reply with quote
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Crits are a good example. They do have a matter of luck, but there are also intangibles involved. Doing better in the game brings a better "chance!" of a crit...nyuk.wav. Get it. Very Happy BTW...you could actually "miss" your crit...another matter of luck and skill.

Anyway...let's just hack Madden so three teams can play, hack pong so the paddle is as wide as the screen and hack tetris so you press a special key and get just the piece you want. Would you want to play any of these games like that. Confused

Valve spent years testing, tweaking, testing tweaking...to come to just the right combination that would bring something new to the table. Seven years in the making and within weeks, their creation is completely changed...essentially by hackers. 32 players is far too many for TF2 2fort...Valve knew that. A system of careful calculation based on balancing spawn times has been sidestepped. Not a pretty sight in Valve's eyes.

People new to the game will not experience this game as it should be played if they happen on one of these servers first. That's what Valve is fighting to avoid. Valve created an good game with balance and made it newbie friendly in addition. The people that are changing these facets of the game are the old time TF'ers...not the new players.

Valve don't like that. Twisted Evil

And no...I don't work for Valve. Very Happy
Just cause I don't like the game, doesn't mean I don't appreciate what they've built.

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Audhumla
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:34 pm  Reply with quote
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Chips wrote:

Anyway...let's just hack Madden so three teams can play, hack pong so the paddle is as wide as the screen and hack tetris so you press a special key and get just the piece you want. Would you want to play any of these games like that. Confused

absoLUTELY

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Chance!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:54 pm  Reply with quote
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pong and tetris examples are bad, as they make the game easier.
instant respawn, extra players, and crits do not.
the madden example would add an entire new level to the game, the way some of these do.
Crits are the only thing i'm against, honestly. I don't care about instant respawn or 32 player servers. But, I don't think valve should be so against them. They don't have to like their existance, but they don't have to go through so much effort to remove them. There hundreds of "hackers"(better known as modders) for each person they have on their staff, and these hackers WILL find ways around what they impliment. But that is not a reason to give up.
I'm not going to bother arguing crits here though. I've yet to see an argument for them that is convincing.
And i seriously doubt people are going to go to one server, play once, and NEVER give it a go again. If that is their worry, they simply need to make sure any modded server is labeled that way. That way, no one EVER is going to not realize that this isn't the "true nature" of the game. Why stop modding? It encourages those who would otherwise leave the game to stay. I KNOW I'm not the only one who thinks "if they were to remove crits, or if i could play without crits, I would play that game much more". WHY stop those people from playing? Because it goes against your original plan for the game? That is BS. IF they want something like that, do what MMO's do and supply all the servers for people to play on, and don't allow others. That way people can't mod. Its rediculous to care so much otherwise.

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Toughsox
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:00 am  Reply with quote
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Truth of the matter is, we changed the name from INSTANT respawn to FAST respawn because in reality, thats what it is.....fast, not instant. There is still a 2-4 second delay in respanw. But, for whoever says "Then everyone just insta spawns in front of the cap.flag....ummm, thats what we have all been playing since TFC started.
As for Crits, according to the Gabe Newll interview, he explains pretty much the way that Chips did....it is supposedly random, and if you have a "crit loaded" which you wouldnt know about, and it missed, well, then thats why you didnt get a crit award.
As far as the 32 person servers, correct...its a hacked dll file, thus I can see why Valve would be upset as you did exactly that....hacked their code, versus a plugin that just adds to it.

But Chance said it exactly the way I see it......they sold it, we have it, they allow us to use it and by doing so, WE pay to run the servers, not Valve. Therefore....if it was something people didnt want, then the servers would sit empty.
When we ran 4 plain vanilla servers, they sat empty, no matter how many people I dragged in, within a few maps, poof, empty.

Our server bill is close to $300 a month, and the only way it gets paid is thru donations.....donations from people that want the game played their way. If you check Games monitor or Games Server......the top 50 servers all have SOME THING thats not stock......either custom maps, no crits, fast respawn.....and more importantly, they are all over 24 person servers.

Totoally off topic but.....as for why I believe Valve/Steam never cared to fix or patch our beloved TFC is simple economics......they gave it away with Half Life thinking it was just filler, and when it took off, the gate was opened already and there was no mechanism to charge people now for something that was free once before.....thus, why waste their efforts.
Wanna test my theory out? Think CS & DoD. Same as TFC....FREE!!!
They eventually got smart and decided to tweak it on their own and release it on Source.

Quote:
Counter-Strike 144,918 players 97,926 servers 7.968 billion minutes played

Counter-Strike: Source 23,779 players 37,617 servers 2.171 billion minutes played.


The disparity of DoD isnt as bad....but FREE DoD still have 2x the stats as DoD:Source.
Thus, you would think they would support CS and DoD regular but do they? Nope.......not 1 single thing at all.....just Source mods get their attention.

Lastly, from some of the info I have been reading....and the only reason we have not turned any of our servers into 32 persons is.....serious rumor is that Valve is allowing TF2 to go 32 person in one of the upcoming patches......when they are releasing 4 new maps.

And Lastly to Kibbles:
We added a 5th server......24 person, no mods, all stock maps.
Quote:
66.228.126.58:27015 Guns4Back2School.com :: TF2 #5 :: STOCK MAPS :: NO MODS
Very Happy

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tiger
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:03 am  Reply with quote
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dod isnt free

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Valkyllias
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:58 pm  Reply with quote
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TFC and CS aren't either. Atleast they weren't abuot a year ago, when Snape had to buy TFC again.

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kibblesnbits
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:02 pm  Reply with quote
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TF2 also cannot be compared to TFC

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Valkyllias
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:04 pm  Reply with quote
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kibblesnbits wrote:
TF2 also cannot be compared to TFC


Agreed.

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gilliam
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:34 pm  Reply with quote
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we will see how much you argue against fast respawn when its just you and one other on the server before players start filling in.... and you have to wait more than a quarter of a minute to respawn while your inteligence briefcase is already out on the bridge. by the time you respawn, too bad, your briefcase is already capped.

spawn delay: no thanks. . i think if valve wants to force delays to stay then add the number of players on the server into the spawn delay equation.

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Chance!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:48 pm  Reply with quote
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gilliam wrote:
we will see how much you argue against fast respawn when its just you and one other on the server before players start filling in.... and you have to wait more than a quarter of a minute to respawn while your inteligence briefcase is already out on the bridge. by the time you respawn, too bad, your briefcase is already capped.

spawn delay: no thanks. . i think if valve wants to force delays to stay then add the number of players on the server into the spawn delay equation.


To validate spawn timer, arguments will begin to assume 12+ players.
To validate crits, arguments will begin to assume 16+ players.
Any less and these two things will work against those players on the server.
What i mean by this: say you are in 6v6. You are the defensive team on dustbowl. An enemy soldier fires 3 rockets, misses horribly, fires his last rocket, its a crit, and happens to hit 2 enemies as they run around a corner, and are instantly dead. Soldier then switches to his shotgun, and manages a couple hits, one of which is a crit(which has a higher chance of being a crit, seeing as he just scored a couple kills), making it kill the enemy demoman from full life, before he gets taken out by another enemy fatty. Suddenly, due to a couple fairly lucky shots, half your team is dead and won't be even alive for another 15 seconds. This one soldier, who happened to hit a couple lucky shots - missed all his others - has now suddenly crushed your chances of defending. Your team, who might have hit 2-3 rockets on him and a shotty or two, and was about to kill him before he even did 1 damage, is dead. How is this fair? It was through no real skill of his own.
Respawn timers add to this. They also take away from the fun. But they are hardly as game breaking as crits are.

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-SoldierBoy-
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:38 pm  Reply with quote
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gilliam wrote:
we will see how much you argue against fast respawn when its just you and one other on the server before players start filling in.... and you have to wait more than a quarter of a minute to respawn while your inteligence briefcase is already out on the bridge. by the time you respawn, too bad, your briefcase is already capped.


See how much you like fast respawn when your defending said intell.

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Toughsox
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:05 pm  Reply with quote
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I cant vouch any about TFC, CS and DoD being free as maybe they changed their policy. Or.....are you saying that he lost his STEAM ID or it got VACed and he had to get a new one and then re-download the mods.
Last I knew of.....all those mods were still free as long as you had a valid Steam ID. And truth of the matter is, my current Steam ID is the one thats attached to my 5 digit WON ID.......never had a reason for a new one. Even when I had to get HL2 and they gave me a new ID......never used it for the install.

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tiger
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:51 pm  Reply with quote
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no toughy, tfc dod and cs are not free and never have been. to perform a simple test, go to the steam website and look at the 9.95 price on each of them Smile

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Toughsox
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:17 pm  Reply with quote
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tiger wrote:
no toughy, tfc dod and cs are not free and never have been. to perform a simple test, go to the steam website and look at the 9.95 price on each of them Smile


Were you not convinced since last night? Cool

Oh, its gonna be soooo good seeing Tiger finally admit I was right about something. Laughing Laughing Laughing

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Offense doesn't win matches.......big friggin' guns do !!! Ole' Painless FTW !!!
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tiger
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:23 pm  Reply with quote
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lol i figured youd do this Razz

i guess i just figured mine came with my cd key when i had to input it into steam cause i had bought the package back in 2000 that had hl, tfc, and cs together.

however i still hold true that i got screwed cause dod wasnt free for me Laughing Crying or Very sad

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