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DogMode
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:41 pm  Reply with quote
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I don't know man, back in my Quake days I could "fluidly trace" a player with the Machine Gun just like he did in the demo with the AR. After playing a game for so long against thousands of Human adversaries, you get fairly accurate at predicting Human movement. Especially when they're escape path is simply running around a corner and down a ramp (If I'm looking at the wrong AR let me know). His excuse for the jerkiness was playing with a touch pad, which I have also done. It does cause a jerkiness almost identical to whats seen in the video. Again, after playing for an extended period of time with a touch pad; you get real familiar with whre you need to move you finger on the pad to aim at the advancing enemy and don't evven notice the jerk as its natural for you.

I'm just saying that the Walling seems obvious, the Aimbotting not so much.

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The Crimson King
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 11:48 pm  Reply with quote
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DogMode wrote:
I don't know man, back in my Quake days I could "fluidly trace" a player with the Machine Gun just like he did in the demo with the AR. After playing a game for so long against thousands of Human adversaries, you get fairly accurate at predicting Human movement.


that's exactly how i EMP people all the time. i know how long it takes for someone to get out of spawn, and into my range, so i prime early, just in case.

unix_yoda wrote:


Little tip to those of you who don't think he was aimbotting in that demo. He toggles and the key to look for is the snap motion. A quick abrupt movement that's out of sync with players regular sensitivity movement followed through with precision target tracing over a period of time. That is an aimbot. Humans don't fluidly precision trace over periods of time, but a program can. This is present from the med and when he uses the AR in the demo.

Try looking at demos of people banned in leagues from aimbots you will see these signature characteristics that are also present in the demo I have presented. This is the reason so called "trigger bots" were developed, they are virtually impossible to detect just by watching and proof is almost indefinite every time. Unlike aimbots, trigger bots do not assit you in aiming, what they do is fire when you aim over the target to make it much more difficult to detect to the average viewer.


you talk as if we haven't seen how hackers work. in my almost 3 years of playing on this server, not to mention 3 previous years of playing tfc, i've seen enough aim bot hacks to know what's going on and what's not going on. what i'm seeing here is neither aim hacks, nor what you say about trigger bots. had it been a trigger bot, that medic who conced in would have been dead faster.

i'm not defending Rebs, but i find your 'certainty' that he's aimbotting insulting to those who know better Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil

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kibblesnbits
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 2:12 am  Reply with quote
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unix_yoda wrote:
If you wan't a statistical breakdown absolutely nothing is 100% certain



Its 100% certian that I don't care what you think.

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Chance!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 2:32 am  Reply with quote
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kibblesnbits wrote:
unix_yoda wrote:
If you wan't a statistical breakdown absolutely nothing is 100% certain



Its 100% certian that I don't care what you think.


Lets keep it a bit civil.
Krimson, thanks for your post, it was very informative.
I'm still of the opinion that if aimbot was used, there was insufficient evidence to prove it. Granted, I have zero hacking and zero spotting history. I further convinced myself of this after playing sniper tonight, where i got very similar shots to what rebs was doing. Its not hard to snap to targets like that, nor is it too hard to hold an AR on a target for a while. Similarly, if he had wallhacks, those shots would be fairly easy, as there would be a lot less snap necessary.

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Louie
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:05 am  Reply with quote
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"I don't have an aimbot, it's a TrackBall!" lol

I'm just disappointed that Rebs still hasn't at least admitted at least the wallhack which is beyond clear. I'm glad he's not on the server if he won't even be honest about it.

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rebel_leader
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 11:15 am  Reply with quote
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unix_yoda wrote:

If you wan't a statistical breakdown absolutely nothing is 100% certain; however, when the chances against the favor approach 0, 100% is within rounding. Obviously when you're talking about situations with many variables one cannot account for the infinite variables and boil it down to a numeric value with precision and accuracy. The basis for your arguement is word logic, you have fun with that. If the infinitesimally small chance you weren't aimbotting (since nothing can be 100% obviously)


the basis or my argument is a purley mathmatical perspective. in no case in true math do you ever round to 0 or 100. the chances that i wasnt hacking is not infitesimally small. its actually quite realistic. the phrase infitesimally small is a phrase that you will never see applied anywhere correctly to chances probably every chance is realistic, maybe not probable but realistic. its like saying the chances you get into a car accident is infitesimally small, or that i had a good day sniping is infitesimally small. please, if you are gonna talk about something that i dedicate my whole life to, anything with probability statistics and math... please know your stuff before sounding foolish :]

Louie wrote:
"I don't have an aimbot, it's a TrackBall!" lol


lmfao.

Louie wrote:

I'm just disappointed that Rebs still hasn't at least admitted at least the wallhack which is beyond clear. I'm glad he's not on the server if he won't even be honest about it.


as we just saw with aimbot.. what is beyond clear to some is reasonably doubtful to others.


Last edited by rebel_leader on Sun Jul 08, 2007 11:18 am; edited 1 time in total

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Chips
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 11:16 am  Reply with quote
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Yes...by all means keep it civil. Yoda has come here to explain himself and explain the workings of the hack(s) as he understands them. I don't recall any of his words to be demeaning in any way...no reason anyone should be making this personal.

He gave a wealth of detail and information...for those that maybe have no idea how these things work, it's a good starting point for them to understand. Neutral

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rebel_leader
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:04 pm  Reply with quote
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oh by no means was my response a personal attack, sorry if it was misunderstood as such. the information he stated was defintley good ground for hacks, i was only attacking his poor wordplay.

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Foxtrot
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:19 pm  Reply with quote
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Please, you're skirting the real issue of whether you cheated or not and now you're attacking semantics as a viable defence. Please don't waste people's time by posting that sort of tripe, this is a serious issue and you're not treating it as such.

To me, when you start turning down that line of argument you lose all credibility, its like a last ditch defence when you know you're gone and there is nothing you can do to stop it.

Please Rebs, I enjoy playing with you, own up or shut up (Sorry if thats a bit harsh).
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jum
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:22 pm  Reply with quote
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To properly analyze whether a person in a demo is wallhacking, you need to be able to see what he would see. I'd recommend downloading X-Spectate. It's a tool that allows you to toggle wallhacks while viewing a demo and allows you to see things you wouldn't be able to see when viewing it normally.

Just make sure you don't have it running if you join a real server - it can get you VAC banned.

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Please, you're skirting the real issue of whether you cheated or not and now you're attacking semantics as a viable defence.


Bingo.
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rebel_leader
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:48 pm  Reply with quote
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Foxtrot wrote:
Please, you're skirting the real issue of whether you cheated or not and now you're attacking semantics as a viable defence. Please don't waste people's time by posting that sort of tripe, this is a serious issue and you're not treating it as such.

To me, when you start turning down that line of argument you lose all credibility, its like a last ditch defence when you know you're gone and there is nothing you can do to stop it.

Please Rebs, I enjoy playing with you, own up or shut up (Sorry if thats a bit harsh).



im not skirting the area whatsoever cuz i have already said, if you followed the conversation that i will notdefend myself further cuz you have all already reached your conclusions, i am defending personally against the attacks asi h ave said and maintained that i was not cheating. as do i now, so theres no use repeating myself so i attack a differnt part of peopls arguments.

i most defintley will not "own up" and plz do not tell me to shut up, cuz until you get everyone belive that i hacked and i myself have stated it, you are not 100%sure i did. which is what i was saying in response to unix. give me a 100% proof that i hacked and ill own up, but you wont, noone will, so the best you can do is come to a general consensus, from which i will defend myself.

as this argument went on to me it seems it was slowly turned into my favor from both aimbots and wallhacks to now just wallkhacks.. continue forward and maybe youl reach the conclusion i have stated from the beginning, that i was innocent. or maybe you wont, but that is what i will maintain wheater i am banned or not. so please dont tell me to shut up when you cannot prove anything you have accused me of. you can assume and come to a conclusion, but proof? maybe show me what proccesses my computer was running at the time of hacking.. but im quite sure you cant do that so till then. back off the harshities.

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Toughsox
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 2:24 pm  Reply with quote
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I havent chimed in yet as others have said what I was feeling. However Reb, while I liked playing with you and such, and could give a rats ass what you do/did, I will say this as to your train of thinking.
Understand this isnt a court of law, thus, there doesnt have to be a 100% concensus. I have not looked at any of the posted demos, nor will I, for as I said, the masses have spoken either for or against you, so my opinion doesnt mean squat.
What I do take to heart is your insistance that you feel everyone needs to agree 1 way or the other. That is not the case here, nor will it ever be.... here or anywhere else.
Why, I bet you couldnt get everyone here to agree that today is Sunday, let alone what they may or may not see in a demo.
As to what you did or didnt do, its obvious that some think you were doing things underhandedly........did you ever think to offer up your config files and such to better help your cause?

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jum
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 2:51 pm  Reply with quote
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rebel, your logic is absolutely absurd. First off, the general consensus here from the very start was that you were wallhacking, but not aimbotting. Nothing has changed. Secondly, I have no idea why you continue to argue about semantics. At risk of being somewhat morbid, it's like a lawyer arguing that there is no proof against a murder defendant because nobody actually saw the defendant shoot the victim .... even though there is DNA evidence putting him at the crime scene, he has gunpowder on his hands, the victim's blood on his clothes, no alibi and a Probable Cause.

If it makes you feel better, there is no proof, but there is overwhelming evidence that, IMO, makes you guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Happy?
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rebel_leader
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 3:24 pm  Reply with quote
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guys u are misunderstnading me, or maybe im poor with english, but as im trying to say im not convincing anyone that i wasnt hacking, and im not saying that you all must agree as to the fact that iwas hacking, i said a majority was plenty for me to be banned, and i was banned. i have said i wont agree with your decisions and will hold my own by saying i wasnt hacking and will maintain this UNLESS you provide me with 100% certainty that i was hacking, which im sure you cant.

majority is plenty for me to be banned, and i was, that doesnt mean i must conceed defeat. there is sufficient evidence to get me banned, as you guys say, and i WAS banned. im ok with that .. what im not ok with is you few accusing me over certainly hacking , of a 100% chance i was. you cannot prove such a thing, and i will stick by that. enough to get me banned? ok. theres always room for human error, and what im saying is that in this case, that is so.

so let me repeat myself one more time.

i know i was "caught hacking" by you guys, and that there was a majority consensus that i was so i was fairly banned. what you cannot do is say i was defintley hacking. you had overwhelming evidence as jum puts it to say i was hacking, which is fine. but overwhelming is not complete, and until you get complete evidence. you cannot say i hacked for sure as so many of you have. by all means keep me banned, i dont expect otherwise, for you all do feel i hacked. but nevertheless that doesnt mean i neccisarily did.

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bird^
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 5:54 pm  Reply with quote
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rebel_leader wrote:
guys u are misunderstnading me, or maybe im poor with english, but as im trying to say im not convincing anyone that i wasnt hacking, and im not saying that you all must agree as to the fact that iwas hacking, i said a majority was plenty for me to be banned, and i was banned. i have said i wont agree with your decisions and will hold my own by saying i wasnt hacking and will maintain this UNLESS you provide me with 100% certainty that i was hacking, which im sure you cant.

majority is plenty for me to be banned, and i was, that doesnt mean i must conceed defeat. there is sufficient evidence to get me banned, as you guys say, and i WAS banned. im ok with that .. what im not ok with is you few accusing me over certainly hacking , of a 100% chance i was. you cannot prove such a thing, and i will stick by that. enough to get me banned? ok. theres always room for human error, and what im saying is that in this case, that is so.

so let me repeat myself one more time.

i know i was "caught hacking" by you guys, and that there was a majority consensus that i was so i was fairly banned. what you cannot do is say i was defintley hacking. you had overwhelming evidence as jum puts it to say i was hacking, which is fine. but overwhelming is not complete, and until you get complete evidence. you cannot say i hacked for sure as so many of you have. by all means keep me banned, i dont expect otherwise, for you all do feel i hacked. but nevertheless that doesnt mean i neccisarily did.


Useless.

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